tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post8242307804079530720..comments2024-03-20T10:01:20.599+00:00Comments on Dave Gorman: Blessed Are The ChildrenDave Gormanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02260701102207639816noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-7583997798002636272009-12-22T09:10:39.818+00:002009-12-22T09:10:39.818+00:00Anonymous,
I'm not really scared of a halo. I...Anonymous,<br /><br />I'm not really scared of a halo. I use a bike because it's usually the best tool for the job. If I need to take my kids into town then the train works better.<br /><br />Last night I had to use a bike to rescue a car in the show. It's not the first time.wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-4433740945825422862009-12-18T17:28:03.403+00:002009-12-18T17:28:03.403+00:00I think this is more an issue of ignorance than re...I think this is more an issue of ignorance than religion. I think your actions were entirely correct Dave and, as a school teacher that has to regularly deal with the shit heaped upon kids by the negligence or outright selfishness of adults, I wish society was more prepared to intervene in small ways like this.<br /><br />As a practicing christian, I would also like to say that, although lots of people go for this sort of thing, it's not what the majority of christians approve of. Faith is a personal choice and shouldn't be bought and sold in this way. Jesus never did it, and nor should we. If someone asks me what I think about something, I tell them. If they're not interested, that's fine too. We all make our own choices. Trouble is, human nature seems to lead us into these entrenched, bigoted positions that we then hand over to our kids. Athiests do it, Muslims do it, football supporters do it!<br /><br />Ironically, one of the most insistant and powerful messages of the bible is to not judge others, or prepare to be judged yourself...something that is never too pretty! Why are we christians so bad at that when it is the cornerstone of our faith? To be honest Dave, what you did was exactly that: you took their judgement on you and turned it back to them. You were acting in a more 'christian' way than they were.<br /><br />So, yes, there are some very misguided and ignorant christians out there, but please people, don't judge all christians by the standards displayed here. Get to know some who don't shout at you on the street: you might be nicely surprised at how well-balanced some of them are!Leroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03793091620930812095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-7592758464165316822009-12-18T14:02:48.004+00:002009-12-18T14:02:48.004+00:00Quite a post and thread.
I'm a Christian and ...Quite a post and thread.<br /><br />I'm a Christian and believe me, 'evangelism' is very hard work in this day and age - it is much easier to keep your mouth shut than risk ridicule (or worse).<br /><br />I cannot imagine _ever_ allowing my child to take part in any evangelism until he was an adult - old enough to decide to do it because it was the thing he wanted to do, rather than just to please his parents or 'fit in'.<br /><br />besides which, he's 12 and he has no stated religious position of his own yet. It is his life, not mine, no matter how much I long for him to take what I view as the right direction.<br /><br />On the case in point, had I been derelict enough to allow my children to wander about tube carriages speaking to strangers, I would have told them to stop their unsubtle asides about the non-leafletted passengers, and used the occasion to talk some things through. Ignoring your children and reading your Bible on public transport is so contrary TO the Bible's teaching that I could laugh at it. But I won't - cause it is just sad.Jonathan Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12341478626195362383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-61857302236326764192009-12-18T09:25:06.842+00:002009-12-18T09:25:06.842+00:00The road I live in has a monument at the top to so...The road I live in has a monument at the top to some Maryan Martyrs: Protestants burned alive in the time of Queen Mary. Then explain my family is from the part of the British Isles where that sectarian war is still going on.<br /> <br />I use these fact as the opening gambit for any discussion with evangelists at the front door, before announcing I'm a scientist and then picking on part of their belief system. Mormons: geologic history. Jehovas Witnesses: the fact that every time they've made testable preduction -the end of the earth- they've been wrong. They don't come back.<br /><br />Question is, should I bring my small child out to watch as try to engage in rational evidence-driven debate with people whose belief system doesn't hold up to tests, or not?SteveLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-38604338696791973572009-12-05T18:03:18.903+00:002009-12-05T18:03:18.903+00:00Well, aren't you the great one. Mind your hal...Well, aren't you the great one. Mind your halo doesn't slip and choke you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-26826569462624837252009-11-13T18:22:21.743+00:002009-11-13T18:22:21.743+00:00Anonymous,
I don't take the bible literally b...Anonymous,<br /><br />I don't take the bible literally but when people claim to do so I will ask them to explain bits.<br /><br />I've got some bikes, I don't use public transport unless I've got to take my kids somewhere.wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-44294386263141194822009-11-13T09:35:19.645+00:002009-11-13T09:35:19.645+00:00One thing I noticed, reading online discussions li...One thing I noticed, reading online discussions like this, is that militant athiests and fundamentalist Christians have in common is the belief that the Bible is supposed to be read 100% literally. Another thing is that both groups have a very poor understanding of the historicity of the Bible, when books were written, who is talking to to who, etc. A final thing is that they both draw on fiction/art from the Middle Ages in their thinking on Hell and damnation rather than anything from the Bible.<br /><br />The last point is most interesting, because artists and writers make up their own stories very loosely based on Biblical themes, as do militant athiests and fundamentalist christians. They come up with a point they'd like to make, cherry-pick something from the Bible that seems to back up that point and then work themselves up into a frenzy.<br /><br />Dave's article was not really about believing in Hell but in the actions of a woman and her kids. I've seen worse on public transport.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-4930244566564084742009-11-11T19:59:42.500+00:002009-11-11T19:59:42.500+00:00Simon,
I would suggest that he check out this:
...Simon, <br /><br />I would suggest that he check out this:<br /><br />http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/helmets.html<br /><br />and decide for himself.wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-27338461153020006562009-11-11T18:25:02.856+00:002009-11-11T18:25:02.856+00:00I wonder what Dave might say about your bicycle he...I wonder what Dave might say about your bicycle helmet thoughts?!<br /><br />I could go into what I believe the gouging out eye story is about, but I will leave that to the masses. You are right to challenge assumptions, but, as a general rule, be careful not to make them yourself!Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-74492208457399920462009-11-11T17:56:08.627+00:002009-11-11T17:56:08.627+00:00Simon,
The new testament is far from love laden. ...Simon,<br /><br />The new testament is far from love laden. How about Matthew 18:6-9 which is one I remember being surprised about when I was in school. It's about how you should pull your own eye out if you look sinfully at someone. As teenagers we did a lot of sinful looking but I didn't see anyone lose an eye over it no matter how religious they were.<br /><br />I'm no expert but I have read enough of the bible to have found that sort of thing. I suppose it's a bit like the way I don't really use Windows by choice but I have a copy of Win XP and Win 7 on my MacBook. At least I have tried it out before deciding to not use it and I can tell people why. I have some time for the Amish in this respect because they allow their young people to try out the wider world before deciding to stay or leave.<br /><br />It would be great if we could all get along but I'm not sure religion helps in this. If you look at conflict around the world do you see a religious factor in some of them? Even in the west of Scotland there is religious strife.<br /><br />Mr Howard made a statement about following the bible. I am aware of many contradictions in it as well as absurdities and downright cruelty. I was interested to see how he would defend the simple contradiction.<br /><br />It's always good to challenge assumptions. For example, you may have noticed I ride a bike. I don't wear a helmet. I've got one in the garage someplace but it's going to stay there. I looked into their effect and found that they may help with minor scrapes but actually increase the incidence of serious, life threatening, injury. Cycling is a very safe activity in spite of what people may think.wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-88452708487866117022009-11-11T11:24:37.758+00:002009-11-11T11:24:37.758+00:00@wee folding bike
OK fair enough, I may have been...@wee folding bike<br /><br />OK fair enough, I may have been overly sensitive and read too much into your initial comment and therefore apologize. Your argument is very interesting and there is of course much in it - I will read those passages with an open frame of mind. <br /><br />I stress that I don't agree with Mr Howard, but there have been what I feel are pot shots at him and I don't think that's fair, no matter what somebody believes, hence standing up for him. Disagreement is reasonable, but not insults - I hope you agree with that, be it a religious argument or not. I have many questions about the consistency and understanding of the Bible and in many ways your comments have struck a chord. The disparity between the 'love' of the New Testament does seem to be counter to the wrath of God that seems to manifest itself in the Old Testament; nonetheless, Christian teaching emphasizes love and a personal relationship with Jesus. If we take that teaching at face value, the desire to share this is understandable, but, as dougs says, sharing this inappropriately misses the point (and I would add, undermines any efforts). That's what I agreed with. The foundation for this 'love' requires greater understanding, which I admit I don't have and plan to study as I find it very interesting. You seem to be an expert on this topic so any useful passages and external texts would be appreciated.<br /><br />My personal feeling is that when it comes down to it, why can't we all just get along? People have different beliefs. As long as nobody is hurting anybody or inciting hatred, then I think people should be allowed to believe whatever they wish without fear of persecution. That applies to the internet as much as in life generally.<br /><br />I'm not now saying you were being insulting (although I admit that is what I thought at first - your subsequent points have won me over), but after all that has been said here, the many attempts to rebuke Mr Howard, can I ask why you felt the need to chip in with what you did, given the many criticisms he has received already? I notice he hasn't replied in a while - maybe all the criticisms were taken personally and pushed him away. If true, that is a shame.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-37089876695350633162009-11-11T09:25:43.338+00:002009-11-11T09:25:43.338+00:00Simon,
Did you read the bible verses I referenced...Simon,<br /><br />Did you read the bible verses I referenced? Even Jesus is reported as saying not very loving things. Try Matthew 10:34-36 or even 10:14-15 which is much the same as the girls on the train said. The Christian faith may portray itself as being about love but if you have a look at the foundations of it that doesn't hold up.<br /><br />Asking about the bible is not taking potshots at the author of the comments it's a very clear example of playing the ball and not the man. Why do you think religious beliefs come in for special protection and, in your words, should not be insulted? I still don't see how a question is an insult.<br /><br />I didn't change scripture, I got it all straight from the bible. You seem to think Abrahamic religions are based on some fluffy concept of love. It's easy to find sections of the bible which are not about this. Mr Howard claims to believe and accept the bible I merely asked him about the first contradiction I found and how this works. I can find plenty of others but this is still playing the ball and not the man. I have not compared him to a cartoon character or called him an insulting person.wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-92000630634719386192009-11-11T08:20:13.057+00:002009-11-11T08:20:13.057+00:00I agreed with a comment that said that the Christi...I agreed with a comment that said that the Christian faith is about love, and that any act by a Christian that shows anything contrary - as in this example, alienating the public - misses the point. That I believe is on topic. If you take offence at me supporting a theistic statement simply because it is a theistic statement, that's a different issue.<br /><br />Your need to pick at apparent contradictions in the Bible is tantamount to taking pot shots at the author of comments. Whether or not the Bible is accurate is besides the point with regards to this thread - Mr Howard's beliefs are his own and don't deserve insulting. It is whether his or other's beliefs are portrayed in a suitable way (or whether they should be at all) in the scenario proposed that is up for discussion.<br /><br />You also seem to have changed scripture now. Your point was originally made on scripture about the order of creation, which I fail to see as relevant to a discussion about love, hate and hell.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-3872777615533962532009-11-10T22:04:47.258+00:002009-11-10T22:04:47.258+00:00Simon,
I'm unclear on how asking someone abou...Simon,<br /><br />I'm unclear on how asking someone about the bible is insulting and yet you didn't complain when Mr Howard was compared to Batman. Do you care more about the beliefs or the man?<br /><br />You supported an earlier theistic comment, "I think you are spot on with your comment, couldn't say it better", was that comment on or off topic? <br /><br />The comment was about a loving God. Have you read Genesis 21: 16-23? God doesn't like handicapped people. Too old testament? Then try Peter 1:1-3 - believe what you're told or really bad things happen to you. Does it still seem to be a loving God?wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-5850196460148157052009-11-10T20:33:05.459+00:002009-11-10T20:33:05.459+00:00@wee folding bike
My point was that, though you or...@wee folding bike<br />My point was that, though you or I may not agree with Thomas Howard's comments, I don't think it is fair to simply insult him, particularly when the insult is off topic and therefore uncalled for. The relevance or lack thereof of previous comments has no bearing on whether your own words are fair. Or mine, for that matter, but I felt the need to speak my mind. Have a nice day.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-30728248205747804382009-11-10T18:45:17.561+00:002009-11-10T18:45:17.561+00:00Simon,
Are comments supporting stories from middl...Simon,<br /><br />Are comments supporting stories from middle eastern nomads on or off topic in your opinion?wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-86063788690068839552009-11-10T18:02:09.519+00:002009-11-10T18:02:09.519+00:00@wee folding bike
With all due respect, your comme...@wee folding bike<br />With all due respect, your comment smacks of a personal attack on somebody's beliefs that is off topic for this discussion. The way I understand Dave's post is that there is a time and a place for discussing beliefs: this discussion is therefore on that, not the beliefs of individuals themselves.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-80567691202311358682009-11-10T16:25:16.584+00:002009-11-10T16:25:16.584+00:00Mr Howard:
I do accept and believe the Bible.
...Mr Howard:<br /><br /> <i>I do accept and believe the Bible.</i><br /><br /><br />So Genesis 1:25-27 or 2:18-19. They contradict each other. Which one do you accept and believe?wee folding bikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297849089178251614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-68227300429243116162009-11-09T21:38:54.796+00:002009-11-09T21:38:54.796+00:00@dougs
I think you are spot on with your comment, ...@dougs<br />I think you are spot on with your comment, couldn't say it betterSimonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-9543743233996336692009-11-09T21:18:54.501+00:002009-11-09T21:18:54.501+00:00I agree with religion being a side issue here. Tha...I agree with religion being a side issue here. That is terrible parenting regardless of what the mother was reading and regardless of what was said on the leaflets handed about.<br /><br />However, it is wrong for the mother to allow the children to utter such condemnation on three counts: her teaching to the children of what hell is is theologically wrong - if indeed they were talking about fire; it is not up to Christians to condemn people, people condemn themselves because of their own decisions (before people reply to this I'm approaching this from my theological understanding, not speaking from personal opinion); and, most pertinently, it's just plainly not acceptable social practice. You can't do that, no matter what your religious viewpoint. Good on you Dave for writing that note.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14417978876714003366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-67729612502562377042009-11-08T22:45:23.174+00:002009-11-08T22:45:23.174+00:00Hello, me again.
Fair comment and I agree with you...Hello, me again.<br />Fair comment and I agree with you that it is horrible.<br />I wonder though if the mother even thought they were wishing you ill, as that is what she (and as a result, her kids) believe is actually going to happen to you for not taking the leaflets and therefore didn't feel it necessary to pull them up on their behaviour.<br />Things becomes so emotive when religion is involved (as we've seen from the very theological discussion generated)<br />I wasn't trying to "catch you out" or anything, just trying to see things from a different perspective. <br />All I would say, as an inhabitant of the west country, living mostly surrounded by fields, I happened to visit London recently, and I'd say given the temperature of the carriages on the tube, you were all already half-way to hell anyway!<br />Keep up the good blogging / photography / entertaining work!Born Again Athiestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-61989314366991748762009-11-08T20:00:10.651+00:002009-11-08T20:00:10.651+00:00@Born Again Atheist: I agree that faith is (almost...@Born Again Atheist: I agree that faith is (almost) a side issue here. I agree that it is (mostly) to do with a simple lack of manners... <br /><br />And maybe if the scenario had been as you suggest - with us being labelled big blue meanies for not taking the leaflets for their school fayre - I would have handed their Mum a not saying that I found her children rude and that they were learning bad manners.<br /><br />But they didn't call us names. They wished ill upon us. How clearly that was understood by them I don't know... but there's a difference between calling people names and actually wishing them ill.Dave Gormanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02260701102207639816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-42111144743233315772009-11-08T11:23:35.913+00:002009-11-08T11:23:35.913+00:00As a devout athiest I've given your post a lot...As a devout athiest I've given your post a lot of thought over the last few days.<br />Let's just change a few aspects of the story for a minute.<br />Let's say the mother was engrossed in "Heat" magazine.<br />Let's say the kids were handing out leaflets about a fayre their school was having for Christmas.<br />Let's say they then went on to say that everybody on the carriage were "big blue meanies" for not taking their leaflets.<br />Would you have been so upset at the mother, or would you just have though "wow those kids are rude"? <br />I don't think this scenario shows that those kids were learning to hate (although for all we know, they might be, but this scenario doesn't prove this) I think it just shows that they were being rude and anti-social and being allowed to get away with it by their mother. It's almost a side-issue that religion was involved.<br />Just my thoughts anyway.Born Again Athiestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-72652835484391921512009-11-07T23:48:44.110+00:002009-11-07T23:48:44.110+00:00@Thomas Howard
Christ's harshest criticisms w...@Thomas Howard<br /><br /><i>Christ's harshest criticisms were not of people like me who truly know God</i><br /><br />Thomas I think a little Christian humility wouldn't come amiss here. <br />Let's be clear. I am a Christian. I believe that gives me a relationship with God. (Dave G probably thinks I'm weird as a result.) <br /><br />But assuming one truly knows God, when by (Christian) definition God is infinite, and beyond the comprehension of our puny minds is, at the very least, presumptuous. <br /><br />We all crave certainty, but I think all of what we have understood about God from the Bible, from worship and prayer, from our own experience and from the world always has to be open to revision. <br /><br />We might have got some stuff wrong!<br /><br />That's why I don't walk around railway carriages assuming I know who is heave-bound and who isn't. Nor do I get my kids to do it because they are more cute.Mike Peatmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03385223912601726849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588205362847565197.post-77875242891513655352009-11-07T21:57:22.505+00:002009-11-07T21:57:22.505+00:00That is rather shocking. I don't know how to r...That is rather shocking. I don't know how to react to proslytizing children.KJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10817974804323066290noreply@blogger.com